THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Pterophyllum wrote:Tried looking at this when you posted it on TAFII and for some reason my computer won't play it.

Ghipsi wrote:WOW, I say again WOW!!!
They are stunning, lovely full bellies on the fry and the parents, well there is no doubt as to what they are STUNNING, Dad is a SPECTACULAR Smokey pinoy Paraiba!
Well done Helen
Lisa

endlessendlers wrote:They just seem to be taking forever to become blue.

Pterophyllum wrote:Once again the video won't work on my home computer, I'll have to try to look at it on my lap top, when I get a chance!

well there is no doubt as to what they are STUNNING, Dad is a SPECTACULAR Smokey pinoy Paraiba!

Ok, typical of Johns breeding , saw some blues in there but I see that Johns genes are taking the lead here

how do you multi-quote?

Pterophyllum wrote:OK, I'm perplexed, very perplexed.

If I was shown your second video, knowing nothing about the parents, I would not have picked up on the philippine blue gene. Indeed I would have been pretty confident that they weren't blues.

On the other hand, If I'd only seen the first video then I'd have been equally confident that both parents were homozygous for pb!

Clearly one of these two views must be wrong!


I'm sure mum is a smokey pinoy paraiba and no doubt dad is a blue silver. Mum has the spangles in the tail and dorsal indicative of a paraiba.


Photographs can be misleading, videos particularily so, and those taken with a mobile phone more than most!
Lighting also can make a huge difference to the way fish appear, and all of this seems to be particularily true for paraibas!

Now Lisa has considerable experience with John's fish, where I have never, knowingly, set eyes on one.
On the other hand all the paraibas I've seen are either fish bred by Ken Kennedy, or have at least 1 grandparent bred by him, where Lisa has, to my knowledge, never seen one of his fish!

So what interests me is this comment

well there is no doubt as to what they are STUNNING, Dad is a SPECTACULAR Smokey pinoy Paraiba!

Now to be honest, I have never seen a pinoy paraiba in the flesh, but my initial reaction on seeing that video was that the irridescent blue patches were a very different shade from any of the paraibas I have. I put this down to the fish being a pinoy paraiba, or an effect of the lighting/camera; now I'm not so sure.

Yes, the video shows the true colour of her blue. It's an electric blue as opposed to the usual aquamarine.



So moving on to the second video
Lisa says ....

Ok, typical of Johns breeding , saw some blues in there but I see that Johns genes are taking the lead here

Where I'm struggling to see any blue at all!

So there are a few possibilities.....

1. There's no mystery, we are simply dealing with the problems of lighting and taking an accurate photo that truely reflects what we see.
2.Johns fish are homozygous for pb, but carry a gene or genes which affect when and how pb is expressed.
3. Johns fish have a different form of the pb gene which affects when and how pb is expressed.
4. John's fish don't have pb at all, but a different gene which has similar effects!

Tank lightning is only 50 watts in a 3ft tank and my camera phone isn't working properly. To the naked eye, the (blue) smokies have light blue and green irridescence from the crown to the base of the caudal and pale blue on the lighter areas of the body.



I'm hoping to visit Lisa soon, and when I do, I'll get to see some of John's fish in the flesh, I hope that this will give me an insight into just how similar/dissimilar his fish are to the fish I've been working with.

I hope this will help you understand how John's fish express.



The philippine blue gene is found at a specific locus (a specific position on a specific chromosome), it is well documented that on occation, genes can become "translocated" to a different locus, I'm beginning to suspect that this may have happened with the philippine blue gene. If this is the case, and John has been working fish with the gene at one locus and Ken has been working with the gene at a different locus, then there are exciting times ahead!

If this is the case then it may be that Helen has crossed a philippine blue with a "manchester blue"....

pb/pb - +/+ x +/+ - mb/mb
the resulting offspring would be +/pb - +/mb and would appear to be normal non-blue fish, but crossing back to either parent would produce 50% blue fish either pb/pb if crossed back to a phillipine fish, or mb/mb if crossed back to one of John's. What's exciting is that a sibling x sibling cross would produce 6.25% that were "double blue" being homozygous for both pb and mb.

I'm thinking of keeping a couple of pinoys from this pair and will either do a sibling to sibling cross or cross back to one of the parents. Watch this space. Lol



This is highly speculative, but if it is the case, highly exciting too! I have to caution that this is probably not the most likely explanation, but it is well worth further, careful research!

Ghipsi wrote:Soz, can't make any decent posts yet as my brain is still scrambled from a very long & fantastic day yesterday at the BCA convention, but.... some fantastic stuff here
Lisa

Ghipsi wrote:Just had a good look through the video, the indicaters are the gry blue over the top of the head & blue tinges to the gills, try looking at them under a different light. The cross I made between one of Daves Wild cross singapore blues & a wharmbys Titanium Blue (I'm sure if you ask John he will tell you how your Female is related) the youngsters all looked non pb for some time, Now I can tell the difference as they have got older.
The new batch of youngsters from my wharmby Pinoy & Daves wild X Blue are following a similar track, and not showing any 'Headlights' Just a grey blue colour on some.
Lisa