my breeding pair of Angels are both different colors to each other

Hi im a new member to the group i live in Liverpool Merseyside,my breeding pair of Angels have wrigglers and some swimmers i was wondering if anyone knew what color their fray will be ones gold with dark Zebra type vertical strips the other is a Koi silver with  black markings with a orange head, i know i should just wait and see but im really excited and would love to have some idea of there color, the gold Angel has 4 stripes i have another 5 of them all with 4 stripes heres a picture of the new Parents

Hi Liz,
welcome to the forum, photos might help a bit, but it's still very difficult to predict all the offspring from a particular pairing. In fact it works much better the other way around, if we know what offspring you've got, it gives us a good idea of the genetics of the parents.

Hi Liz,

You might get a mixture of the two (and something else) or possibly the offspring won't look like either parent. It all depends on the genetics of the parents.

Some genetics are easy to identify (because we can see them) other genes are masked.

You say one is gold with dark zebra type vertical stripes. Now, 'gold' angelfish (g/g) are normally a silvery yellow and do not have vertical stripes, so it's not a gold angel. If it has more than 4 stripes (eye, body, body, tail) then it may well have a zebra gene (Z/+ or Z/Z). If it only has the 4 stripes, it's likely to be a wild angelfish (+/+) or sometimes (+/g).

So, that one could be: +/+ or +/g
If it has zebra, it could be: +/+ - Z/+ or +/g - Z/+
(It's also possible that on the above zebra combination, it could be double dose zebra Z/Z instead)

As for the koi, there are 3 types of koi, All of them have a double dose of stripeless gene (S/S) and can not be zebra or clown.

They are either: Gm/Gm - S/S or Gm/g - S/S or Gm/+ S/S.

What will the offspring look like? well broadly speaking, if the first fish doesn't have any zebra, the stripeless gene (S/S) will split to (S/+) in all the young and they will all be 'ghosts' (either white gold marble ghost if the Koi is Gm/g, silver gold marble ghost if the Koi is Gm/+ or dark gold marble ghost if the koi is Gm/Gm).

That doesn't give you all the possible results, but unless you know the precise genetics it's a lengthy guess.
I'm working on a genetics app at the moment, so your post is right up my street!

that's really interesting Dean, although I confess to being a bit thick when it comes to fully understanding it. It's got me wondering what the genetics of my pair are and what their offspring might look like - if I ever get there!

Akasha,

I think yours are smokey blushing... but correct me if I'm wrong.

If yours are both smokies Sm/+ then you will normally get, 25% wild (+/+) no smokey, 50% will be smokey (Sm/+) and the remaining 25% will be double dose for smokey (which is normally called chocolate).

If they are blushing, it means that they have a double dose of the Stripeless gene (S/S). If both parents are blushing all their young will also be blushing.

If you merge what I said in the first paragraph with what I said in the second paragraph.
The cross: (S/S - Sm/+) x (S/S - Sm/+)
Results in:
S/S - +/+ Blushing 25%
S/S - Sm/+ Smokey Blushing 50%
S/S - Sm/Sm Chocolate Blushing 25%

As your fish are most likely from the same parents any matching hidden genes will show up in the offspring.

Hi Dean, they were identified on here as Smokey Blushing. When they were babies you could see the blushing really clear



Now they are adults you can't see it much now as you've probably seen in the most recent photograph that I posted yesterday.

So, my lfs is hoping their young will look like their parents but from what your saying (and I've understood) they might not? They might revert to other colours that geneticly made up my pair? Have I understood that right?

Does the original poster have any photos of the parents available?

Akasha,

If you put your net in and swoop 4 fish out, here's what you're likely to get in your net:

1 Blushing (not like mum or dad) - a lighter fish, no smokey
1 Smokey Blushing (like mum and dad)
1 Smokey Blushing (like mum and dad)
1 Chocolate Blushing (not like mum or dad) - a darker fish

- I think you're starting to understand that your fish can produce more than one variety.

Akasha wrote:So, my lfs is hoping their young will look like their parents but from what your saying (and I've understood) they might not? They might revert to other colours that geneticly made up my pair? Have I understood that right?

This would be more correct:

"They might revert to will inherit other colours genes that genetically made up my [adult] pair."

It follows that it would be very unlikely that all the offspring would look like their parents in your cross. Unless of course only a handful of fish survived.

It's more about inheritance, than reverting
As the adults are smokey, they have 1 smokey gene and one wild, written as: Sm/+

In your case, mum is Sm/+ and Dad is Sm/+

An egg inherits one of mums genes and one of dads, So..
An egg inherits either a 'Sm' from mum or '+' from mum. Then the egg inherits either a 'Sm' from dad or '+' from dad.

 If the egg inherits + from mum and + from dad, it is +/+ (No Smokey)
 If the egg inherits + from mum and Sm from dad, it's +/Sm (Smokey)
 If the egg inherits Sm from mum and + from dad, it's a Sm/+ (Smokey)
 If the egg inherits Sm from mum and Sm from dad, it's a Sm/Sm (Chocolate)

It's all quite random, but generally you'll get a 25%, 50% and 25% split in the offspring (that's because Sm/+ and +/Sm are simply 'one of each type' and are regarded as the same).

Do the fish still have the white streak in their fins? I'm wondering if that's just how they are, or could they also be carrying the St[reaked] gene?

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Further reading
It's possible, that the parents of your adult angelfish were a Blushing x Chocolate Blushing cross, that would have resulted in all Smokey Blushing offspring. It's also possible that the parents of your adult angelfish were a Smokey Blushing x Smokey Blushing cross and you just happened to get a pair of Smokey Blushing Angelfish - in which case they will have have brothers and sisters who are Chocolate Blushing and Blushing. But none of what I've said in this paragraph really matters that much, but it does demonstrate how different crosses can produce the same genetic type of fish.

thanks Dean ... I think there might be some clues to their parents with the other fish that came from the same source... I'll explain.
I got the smokey blushing and these two too from the same source and I'm wondering there is a clue to parentage

A gorgeous platinum angel - no blushing just pure white. It broke my heart having to get rid of her



And this ... some chocolate in there? but she had a gold head



As for white stripes in fins - I can't see any but I'm not really certain as they refuse to stay still at the moment!

The second picture looks like a chocolate to me, so: Sm/Sm.

Platinum angels are normally g/g - pb/pb (double dose of both gold and Philippine blue). Now, it would be quick for people to rule out the platinum angel being related to the chocolate or to the breeding pair you have, because the genes are on totally different loci and where did the platinums' 'stripeless' go?

It is possible via: (g/+ - S/+ - Sm/+ - pb/+) x (g/+ - S/+ - Sm/+ - pb/+) or similar.
Which produces (3x3x3x3) 81 genotypes.

If... (and that's a big if) the platinum angel was a brother or sister of your pair, then your pair could be carrying single does of 'g' and/or Philippine blue 'pb'. In which case, you could end up with upto 27 different genetic types (genotypes) (3x3x3). Again, they'd all be blushing, but you'd have Blushing, Paraiba, Smokey Blushing, Smokey Paraiba, Chocolate Paraiba, Smokey, Sunset Blusher. If you're really lucky, you will get a couple of Platinum Blushing or Paraiba Sunsets as they're also known (g/g - S/S - pb/pb). You only get 1 or 2 per hundred fry in that cross.

Ok, I'm genetically exhausted after that!

you and me both!!

I suspect they were related ... the little chocolate especially as both the chocolate and my male smokey have the same birth defect. Both have wonky pectorial fins. The chocolate had a pair of wonky fins, both fins were pointing upwards and she couldn't move them. My male smokey has just one fin that points upwards and doesn't move. To me this points to them being siblings.

Another thing would be the blue that you mention. Both these smokey's have lots of blue markings. It's on their fins, it's on their body in places too. The platinum angel had lots of blue running through her fins too.
I have no idea if that points to anything but I thought I'd mention it.

Angelfish genetics are fascinating and now I'm even more excited about a possible spawn from them. It'll be really interesting to see what colours come out in the fry and it might answer the question about whether all four of my original angels were indeed related

Akasha wrote:Another thing would be the blue that you mention. Both these smokey's have lots of blue markings. It's on their fins, it's on their body in places too. The platinum angel had lots of blue running through her fins too.
I have no idea if that points to anything but I thought I'd mention it.

Platinum angels normally have lots of blue running through them, because they have two doses of the blue 'pb' gene.

Although I see the blue in your smokey angelfish, it doesn't look anything out of the ordinary. My Bulgarian Green angels are showing signs of blue around their gill / eye area and a similar blue can also be seen in my F1 Peruvian (wild) and recently now on its ventrals. I'm sure neither of these have any 'blue' genes, so the blue you see is quite normal and doesn't suggest to me that they have blue 'pb' genes.

Breeding angels always seem to have slightly more intense colours, so that plays a part too.

hi sorry ive not had time to read any of your replies until today, I`m trying to post some pictures of the Angelfish parents but i`m having abit of trouble i keep getting told there to big, the gold one has only got 4 stripes i have 5 of them all only got 4 stripes, aswell as the breeding pair with fray in my other tank i have a 2 gold 4 stripes paired and a black and silver and a koi also paired up im up the wall as there in with other fish and another 4 angels.

Hi liz - I wanted to apologise for hyjacking your thread somewhat even though it was still on topic!

I always have trouble posting photo's to the site from my pc but from photobucket it is easy.

All I do is click on 'insert an image', that opens a box up and then I got to my photobucket, select the photo I want to insert, click on 'direct' (it turns yellow and says 'copied', then I right click on insert image and paste the image. Final click is on 'insert' at the bottom of the box and then the image should appear.

I hope you followed that, it's not the easiest thing to explain!

its ok Akasha i've managed to post a picture sorry if i`m making a mess of things but i haven't got a clue what i'm doing sometimes haha but the pictures on now of the proud parents haha

Glad you managed to post the photo. What a beautiful pair of angels - the one with the orange head especially ...he/she has some beautiful markings

Thank you Akasha not sure which is the male and which is the female myself haha just spotted in my other tank 2 gold with 4 stripes have laid eggs on the out-let pipe and there's loads of them they will get eaten by the other fish though cant have 3 tanks on the go. will swop around when these babies are big enough to go.

oh lucky you ... I've only got space for one main tank and one very small fry tank! My pair are still dithering about whether they want to spawn and where. Like your's the eggs (if they ever lay them) will get eaten and I've nowhere to move the fish to. If they spawn when I'm around I'll pull the eggs and put them in my little fry tank and hope for the best! I've no other choice really

ive got a Juwel vision 180 and a 2ft half hexagon with the 2 angels and there babies in ive got a small triangle fray tank but the not in it long so its not
worth getting it out the shed haha

I've got a Juwel Rekord 800 in my shed but no space for it in my flat. I'm on a waiting list to move so hopefully in time I'll get moved to somewhere with more space and then I can get the 800 back up and running. It's perfect for raising angel fry in

Lizkel31 wrote:2 gold with 4 stripes have laid eggs...

These are 'Wild' type angels, otherwise known as 'Silvers'.

As for the other fish in the photo you have recently added. The fish is on an angle, so it's hard to see the flanks clearly. I'm not convinced it's a koi angel. It looks to have quite a lot of black marble. Did it have pink gills when it was younger? If it didn't it can't be a koi, because, by their very nature all koi are blushing (and show pink gills when younger).

Dean's right about the silver angels, and the female of your pair is a silver angel. Koi are blushing gold marbles, and it's true that they usually have red gills when young. Despite the angle, I'm confident your male is a blushing angel. The question is, is it a koi? As dean highlights it has a lot more black on it than is typical for koi, so it's possible that it could be a blushing marble, rather than a koi.
Your original question was, what will the offspring look like? and there are several possibilities :-

Most likely they'll all look very similar, a silver body, similar to mother, but without the stripes, and with a small proportion of randomly placed black marks. If so that would show that Dad is homozygous for gold marble (ie has two copies of the gold gene). The youngsters would technically be silver gold marble ghosts.
Another possibility is that you'd get roughly 50% silver gold marble ghosts, and 50% silver ghosts (without the black markings), given the amount of black on the father, this is very unlikely. But you might just get 50% silver ghosts and 50% more heavily marbled individuals, that would indicate that the male has one marble (not gold marble) gene and one gold gene.
You might also see 50% lightly marbled & 50% heavily marbled indicating that the male has a marble & a gold marble gene.

If all of this isn't confusing enough, it's possible that the female could be carrying a gold gene, and/or that the male is hiding a smokey gene or two, all of which will considerably complicate the picture, and that's where photos of the youngsters when they're older will help!

Thank you Dean for your comment not sure if the male had pink gills when it was young but it did`nt when i got him and Pterophyllum Thank you i definitely cant wait for them to get bigger now all the types of Angel fish you mentioned sound amazing be great if i got a few of them all haha  so what color would the young of 2 wild Angles be


Dean hope you can see these pictures of the male better

Lizkel31 wrote:...so what color would the young of 2 wild Angles be

Well, that's an easy one. When you cross two wild angels, you get... 100% wilds, just like their parents.
You would say these 'breed true'.

There are circumstances where people cross two wild angels and they do not breed true, that is, they end up with some different offspring. When things like this happen, it helps to build a better picture of the true genetics of the parents, it may confirm a gene is present or absent in the pairing. It's quite normal not to know and have quite a few question marks about the true genetic makeup of an angelfish.

That's because there are almost 15,000,000 (15 Million) possible genetic angelfish gene variations.
(25% of these are duplicates of one another) so your fish is 1 of the remaining 11.25 million possibilities!

That is a better photo of the male, but I'm still undecided, sorry

and having confidently identified the the koi as the male, I'm not so sure now!
I'll certainly be interested to see what the young turn out like, it's quite an interesting colour, the strength of orange on the crown, combined with the extensive black coverage suggest an "orange marble" http://www.angelsplus.com/FishOrangeMarble.htm but the purity of the white suggests a koi, If forced to get off the fence, I'd guess at the fish being a koi that's homozygous for gold marble.

Thank you Dean and Pterophyllum ill post pictures as the young are getting bigger
aswell as the 2 wild angels laying eggs in my big tank in the same tank thees another 2 getting ready to spawn they are both black and silver but 1 has a bit of orange on it, wish i had the room and the tanks to separate them as well