My first batch of angelfish eggs

it's changing rapidly. They've got rid of the tetra's - they've stopped circling now. The female is sat over the eggs and keeps going to fan them. She's not really wanting the male around though and is intermittently chasing him away before allowing him to come and help fan them! She's an odd ball.

I don't think these two are a good pairing really. Even though the male had the choice of 3 females I still feel that the female he 'chose' isn't the right one for him. She's really evil to him at times!

There are loads of eggs ... no wonder she looked so fat! I really hope this works out in a way but I know that there too many variables and too much stacked against her.

I am going to look at tank dividers before the next spawn. I really want them to succeed and I think that might be the only way

It would have to be a very secure divider, it's not just about keeping the little fish out, it also has to keep the fry in, and they are very small. A good divider would be a large very fine sponge (or a medium / course sponge with a fine sponge on the parent / fry side) - glass / acrylic would be just as good, but you might have a job on fixing it in place in an established aquarium, as you'd need to empty it.

I doubt that tank divider products would be very robust, but admittedly I've never used them

it doesn't matter now really. The eggs had all gone by the time I went to bed. My tank lights went out and the eggs disappeared. I didn't see who ate them though

Awww, I know you want some fry and it's hard when things don't seem to be going right. Chin up!

Here's my breeder set-up about 30" x 12" x 15" high:



It's painted on 3 sides to offer some security (they can't see me as much). It is heated and filtered by my main tank. As you can imagine this simple setup stops many of the problems associated with a community tank. They're not bothered by other fish, if one parent is eating eggs I can quickly plop him / her back into the community tank (no adjustments needed because it's the same water) and the other one can try it alone. If they're both eating eggs, i can put the eggs in a smaller container and float it in the tank. No drama and no tank dividers to mess up the main aquarium.

I'll setup more dedicated breeding tanks as my pairs develop and I obtain others, I'd like to have lots of varieties.
It's hard work though, found myself feeding baby brine shrimp at 4.30 am!

my problem is a lack of space. I live in a one bed flat. The living room is 12 ft square and there's the main 4ft tank in there. My bedroom is only 9ft x 12ft so no space in there. And my hallway is all storage cupboards and so no room for a tank there - plus there's no available power point in there.

If I had the space I'd move them again. I did try it once in a 110 litre tank but it didn't work. They fell out completely and the male refused to fertilize the eggs. As soon as I moved them back to the main tank they came back together and the male did fertilize the eggs yesterday. If I have to move them again I'd have to possibly move them in with some cories as I think they missed the company of other fish

okay, I'm confused. After laying eggs on Sunday and allowing them to be eaten before the end of the day my female is still displaying her breeding tube this morning. With all other spawns her tube has gone back inside within a few hours of completing the spawn. I've just witnessed her obcessively cleaning leaves - is it possible she's still holding some eggs and is planning to spawn again this soon?

It's possible, but more likely that the tube will retract in 24-48 hours, and that she'll lay again 3 or 4 days sooner than you might normally expect her to.

okay, thanks. It has retracted very slightly but not as much as I've come to expect. She is looking very slender again so maybe she has layed all she had

I've now come to the conclusion though that I'm not going to get any fry from these two. I suspect it was the male that ate the eggs as soon as the lights went out as that was what he did with every spawn when they were in my 100 litre tank alone. If I want a successful spawn I'm going to have to remove the male and the only way to do that is to set them up in another tank ... something I know didn't work when I tried it! (am I making sense?) Perhaps I'll admit defeat on breeding and just enjoy them for what they are ... two very nice looking angelfish

That's the dilemma a lot of fishkeepers have and not just with angelfish!

Yes it would be great to have a breeding pair in the community tank (1 tank) and yes I want them to breed, but where am I going to keep the pair (they ideally need another tank... 2 tanks) and where will I keep the fry until they get big enough (100+ growing fish need a grow out tank... 3 tanks) and space for the equipment for raising live food for the fry.

Then, when you have fry, you'll find at least 10 nice ones that you want to keep yourself (enough to have m&f's), so that might mean 4 tanks! Arghhh!!!

Is all that mess the dream you had in mind? maybe not... so it might be that the right thing is just to just enjoy them. You could just have males or females, that way they won't breed.

If you go that route, let me know as I'm always interested in building up my breeding stock and I'd keep you updated

I'd never get rid of these two angels ... find me another pair in my area. I've never seen them again since getting them and I think it will be a very long time before I see smokey blushing angels again round these parts. Now if I wanted a koi angels or a silver striped angel then I could get one tomorrow practicly anywhere but something different and special ... that's a bit harder.

This morning the female has almost fully retracted her breeding tube but not all the way. Normally it's completely invisable until she's ready to lay eggs but this time she's not retracted it fully. Perhaps Pterophyllum is right and she'll lay sooner next time.

They're still cleaning leaves and bickering with each other - and with my curviceps pair this morning too. My female curviceps has just charged the angels down - she's mad this morning. She's almost black in colour and when she darkens like that she's not a happy fish. Funny thing is, male curviceps is bothering female curviceps so she told him off too and then male angel chased male cuviceps away from the female! The angels are now sat with female curviceps ... it's very odd

Sounds like a right carry on! Entertaining though

hahaha, yes two lots of cichlids in one tank can be challenging and the only reason it works is that curviceps are a shy, none aggressive type of cichlid.

What was fun (ie-chaos) was when I had bolivian rams, curviceps and two angels in my 180 litre tank all spawning at once! After a couple of months I had to re-home the angels. That was why I got more angels after the rams died.

just thought I'd type a bit of an update as I've not been on for a week or two...

Well the angels have gone from constantly fighting and bickering to being far more relaxed with each other. Their behaviour towards each other has definitely changed since the last failed spawn. I have no idea what this means as I'm still reasonably new to angels but common sense says they're just growing up, leaving the teenage stage and heading into adulthood. They stick together most of the time - my female has stopped bossing the male about constantly and now seems to need to know where he is all the time!
Since the last spawn the female has been displaying the tip of her breeding tube constantly. This morning it's looking a bit more visable and she's looking very plump. Perhaps she's considering another spawn but with these angels nothing is obvious! I've heard of other angel keepers who's angels spawn like clockwork but my pair don't seem to have a routine going at all. She just seems to drop eggs as and when with very little warning!

Perhaps I should just sit back and enjoy the calm that seems to have descended on my tank for now! Should she decide to drop some eggs I'll be back to let anyone interested know

Always interested

The best way to monitor 'plumpness' is to view the angel 'head on'. When due food, you'll notice angels will often come to the front of the tank and as they move upwards towards the surface, you'll notice a plump belly () It's not so obvious when looking at their flanks (when doing lengths of the aquarium). You'll probably see a gradual increase in size over 3 or 4 days. It could be easy to miss.

A pair will often be aware of where the other one is and will often stay close by; happy in each others company. If you had a group of say 6, you might notice one of them nudges 4 others but leaves the 5th one alone. These little subtle patterns can indicate a pairing.

Fingers crossed, everyone deserves eggs at Easter time.

I've noticed that my female is starting to bully my male again so I think she's got some eggs due .... but ... she's constantly pecking at his chest and now it looks swollen and a little bit red. She's not broken his skin but I just wanted to check whether all was well and this was something and nothing

She's wanting to lip lock with him but he's pulling up as she goes in so she's hitting his chest instead ... this what I've observed anyway

I think you can expect some tit for tat, even some moderate aggression / testing interactions. I would say, just keep an eye out for any serious injury, but don't be too quick to step in. If they're going 'head to head' then at least they're both giving as good as they get (so to speak), or at least taking what is being dished out. A sort of 50/50 situation.

If you find that the balance is totally out then you'd have to step in.

The chances are, that this is all down to her current condition and it's all part of pairing / bonding. So, you might just have to ride it out. Can't be long now!

thanks Dean, I'm just watching them now and she's definitely wanting to spawn. He's giving it back but he's not as aggressive as her - he never has been really. One of them has got a chunk out of their tail this morning so it looks like the bickering has gone on through the night. I actually saw my female curviceps step in on their bicker a few minutes ago. Perhaps she's fed up of it lol

Just got a proper visual - it's the male that's missing a chunk of his tail, and a bit of dorsal too. She's got torn fins aswell (not as severe as the male) so as you say - it's tit for tat

I'm sure an update is due Akasha, everything okay?

Hi! sorry .... got rather a lot going on and it's all stress in my household at the moment.

Nothing yet from the angels and I'm getting twitchy...

On the 7th May I have a new carpet being fitted in my living room .... which means the tank has got to be emptied and moved out of the room. I either need the angels to spawn this week or forget it at least another 3 weeks! It will be just my luck they will spawn on the 5th

The fish will be going to a temporary home which will mean a plastic storage tub stood on my coffee table - in the kitchen - seen as that's the only place it will fit. My smaller fish will have to go into my little 30 litre tank - purely because I don't trust my angels not to see food when they are hungry (I won't be feeding them while they are 'in storage' as I'm worried about water quality) That will also have to go into my kitchen ... as will a 4ft tank. I'm going to be a regular at a take away for a couple of days! Major stress

Takeaways and a new carpet, sounds great!

It will probably take no more than an hour to fit, if they do it for a living. So it's all in the preparation, sounds like you're thinking it through. New eggs just complicate an already complicated situation.

I would strip the tank bare (water, filter, heater, fish only, planty stuff) on the run up.
Buy 3 plastic containers, which will fit inside the main aquarium.

container 1 with angels
container 2 with other fish
container 3 with plants and keep filter running on this.

When 4' has been emptied and moved to kitchen (night before). Fill the tank about 6" with normal tap water (don't treat it, you'll just be throwing it away tomorrow, just make sure temp is at 27ish). Put the heater in the 4' to keep the tap water warm. Now stand container 1,2 and 3 in the main tank. As long as the water levels are roughly the same, they won't float about and the one heater will keep all the containers at the right temp. You could use an air stone in the main tank, to make sure the warm water is circulating around the outside of all the containers.

Don't feed any of the fish; if you're concerned about water quality, use a net to remove the fish poo. Use a jug to juggle water between the filtered container and those with fish. You don't need to do this constantly.

When ready to put fish back, dump the normal tap water, remove containers, position main tank on lovely new carpet, dump the water from all 3 containers and contents into your bare tank. Everyone happy! Filter still running. Maybe add another 3 containers of new treated water (if you need to get the water level up quickly), otherwise, just keep adding a bit each day, as and when, until your water level is almost back.

Lastly put substrate back in, no rush.

That's how I'd do it.
If you have a spawning at any point, you could try to keep eggs with parents (might be stressful for them, but maybe not) or remove whatever the eggs are on and pop them in with the plants, where the water should be the best.

That's my stress free advice lol - you better not drip water on the new carpet!

I'm planning to make it easy on myself. The tank is only 12 ft away from where it's going in the kitchen. The tank stand is also on plastic feet so should just slide across the old carpet and into the kitchen - right in front of the kitchen sink! Perfect for easy re-filling.

The plan is to remove the smaller fish first - they're going into my 30 litre - so it'll be my harlequins and neons in there. Then I'll concentrate on catching my larger tetra's and bagging them up. Then the angels and curviceps. Then the tank will be drained and the large storage tub filled up with the tank water - it holds a good 100 litres so plenty big enough for a couple of days at most. Once that's filled I plan to add a spare heater I keep for emergencies and then I'll remove one of my two external filters and that will be put in the box. Once that's ready the fish can be added.
Then I'll drain the tank down to the last 2 inches of water and use lots of masking tape to secure the tank to it's base. Once I'm happy it's secure the tank will be slid on it's base into the kitchen and I'll re-fill it. My cories will still be in the tank as I think it will be far less stressful to leave them to deal with being moved for 5 minutes than start chasing them around with a net for hours on end. The ancistrus and SAE's will be left in the tank with them too. Then on the return journey it will just be everything in reverse! I'm hoping to re-use a lot of the water so that the tank basicly gets a 50% water change - just cos I'm worried about my tap water/tank water pH discrepency.
If the carpet fitter is on his own then the tank will stay in the kitchen until my Dad turns up with my uncle to move things back. If there's two fitters I might offer em an extra 20 quid if they put my tank back ... nowt like being cheeky and if you don't ask you don't get lol

Never-the-less I'm still incredibly nervous about the process ... I've got a plan and I think it's a fairly good one but I'm still worried I'm going to lose some very beautiful fish

I would:

take bigger fish out first, less of them, easier and quicker to catch.
check the 100 lts container, is capable of holding 100 lts of liquid, in advance.
not push a cabinet in that way with any weight on it.
put catfish in with fish.

drain the tank right down, using the hose to suck out the sand. that way, the tank can be moved off its stand.
move the tank and stand separately.

If you want a hand, ask!

Dean

that seems more than a little extreem just to move a tank a few feet for a day and move it back again! The top of the stand is supporting the tank base when it's full of 240 litres of water - surely it's secure enough to support it when empty.

To start tearing my scape apart would absolutely destroy me. Two years of hard work torn apart just for the sake of moving it. I'd rather get the carpet fitter to cut the old carpet around the tank and fit the new one up to it than tear my scape apart

Cut around it then, just ask carpet fitter to leave some spare. I understand that you don't want to undo your very hard work.

Tank stands are built to take the weight of the tank and water while the tank is in situ, the force is a 'downward' force. Pushing or pulling the tank to its new destination, in the way you describe, exerts a sideways force and a downward force at the same time, which it is not designed for.

You could stack the weight of a tin of beans (or more) on the top of two dominoes on their ends. Apply sideways pressure and see what happens. Beans!!!

At 2" full, the water would weigh 24kg, add to that the weight of the glass aquarium around 40kg, so 64kg... then add the weight of the stand... that's quite a lot of 'drag' which is why I would never advise it. It's not a safe weight to be working with and not worth you or anyone else getting hurt. In this case, the safest way to proceed is to cut around it. I had thought of suggesting that idea, but came to the conclusion that that wasn't an option, otherwise you wouldn't be going to the trouble of moving it, seems that it is an option after all

well I'm in the process now of arranging for four men to life and carry rather than slide and move.

The large lump of wood is coming out just in case it falls in the process and hits the glass and I'm wondering whether to have my Rekord 800 brought in from the shed and get the fish in there rather than the storage box. The only problem I can forsee with that is the filter not being able to cope and there's no option to add an external to that without leaving the lid open.

I'd already considered cutting the carpet around the tank but it'll look a mess and after forking out nearly £300 it looking a mess isn't an option!