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You need to look at the babies to tell the genetics

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You need to look at the babies to tell the genetics

Post  gibbo156 on Sat 13 Apr 2013, 10:14

I've been experiencing something first hand that Bob ( pterophyllum ) pointed out a while ago.
Sometimes you have to look at the babies to tell the genetics of the parents.
I have trouble telling the difference between a fish that has a gold marble gene ( gm/+ ) and a fish that is gold and marble ( g/M ) and it isn't until i see some youngsters that i start to work it out.
It is obvious (mostly) when you write it down.
if you cross gm/+ with +/+ then you will get 25% gm/+ and the remainder will be +/+
but
if you cross g/M with +/+ then you will get 50% g/+ and 50% M/+,
I KNEW all this by reading Bob's posts on here, loads of other internet stuff and books; but it isn't 'till you see it in the flesh that it really sinks in.
I love this hobby!

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Re: You need to look at the babies to tell the genetics

Post  uk bulldog on Sat 13 Apr 2013, 11:07

Gibbo i have to admit i have also learnt from Robs posts & find them very intense but once i have read them a few times it all makes sense,all i can say is please keep your posts comeing Rob as you are the mentor.
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Re: You need to look at the babies to tell the genetics

Post  Pterophyllum on Sat 13 Apr 2013, 12:57

Glad you're both finding my comments useful....

Now Gibbo,
The fish in this pairing are both lovely fish http://www.uk-angelfishforum.org.uk/t492-and-the-next-batch#3480, but I suspect you're going to be rather surprised by some of their babies Smile

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Re: You need to look at the babies to tell the genetics

Post  gibbo156 on Sat 13 Apr 2013, 16:20

Pterophyllum wrote:Glad you're both finding my comments useful....

Now Gibbo,
The fish in this pairing are both lovely fish http://www.uk-angelfishforum.org.uk/t492-and-the-next-batch#3480, but I suspect you're going to be rather surprised by some of their babies Smile

Are you going to give me a clue as to what the surprise will be ?
Or have i got it all wrong (again) ?

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Re: You need to look at the babies to tell the genetics

Post  gibbo156 on Sat 13 Apr 2013, 16:43

gibbo156 wrote:
Pterophyllum wrote:Glad you're both finding my comments useful....

Now Gibbo,
The fish in this pairing are both lovely fish http://www.uk-angelfishforum.org.uk/t492-and-the-next-batch#3480, but I suspect you're going to be rather surprised by some of their babies Smile

Are you going to give me a clue as to what the surprise will be ?
Or have i got it all wrong (again) ?

Unless,,,,, you suspect that there might be a gold gene in the blue marble smokey.
If there is, it hardly shows, i hadn't noticed the slight yellow to his upper body until i took those photo's this morning.
I just went back and had another look at him in the flesh...
maybe..........

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Re: You need to look at the babies to tell the genetics

Post  Pterophyllum on Sat 13 Apr 2013, 17:55

There are two things I'm noticing, one applies to both parents, and the clue is look at their dorsals.

I'm confident the male's not got a gold gene, but you're on the right tracks...

...take a close look at the babies, I think you should be able to spot something even at this age!


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Re: You need to look at the babies to tell the genetics

Post  gibbo156 on Sat 13 Apr 2013, 22:25

We are probably about to expose a hole in my experience here.
First. the parents. The only thing i might be seeing is a dark gene. The dorsal fins have a lacey appearance. I have never knowingly owned a fish with a dark gene, neither D/+ nor D/D. I say knowingly. I might have owned one without noticing, and that is my excuse if that is what i have missed here. It will also be good news because a dark gene is one strain that i don't have but do want.
Then again, i might be entirely on the wrong track.
Secondly. The babies. I am not spotting anything different yet, they are the usual orange bellied brine shrimp gobblers at the moment. There are two distinct types within the batch. Most of them seem to be quite dark coloured and slightly bigger than the others. In my , admittedly limited, experience it isn't unusual for the genetics to make some of the babies look and act slightly differently to the rest of the batch. For example, in the last batch i raised they were even free swimming in two distinctly separate groups, almost 24 hours apart. The second group to swim were always slightly smaller , even after a couple of months, and turned out to be the blushing (s/s) fish.
In this batch, the very slightly smaller ones are not so dark coloured as the rest, but to be honest it is difficult to tell when the fry are so small anyway and usually full of orange brine shrimp.
Dad is being especially attentive and is very tolerant of the babies browsing all over him.
Both parents look really good when they are still in the water with thier fins stretched right out making themselves available for thier babies. Not bad when it is the first batch they have raised. They have always spawned in the community tank before and nobody's eggs last overnight in there.

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Re: You need to look at the babies to tell the genetics

Post  Pterophyllum on Sat 13 Apr 2013, 23:40

OK first off, what's the difference between these two?....




next off, compare these four fish, have a stab at IDing their genetics ....





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Re: You need to look at the babies to tell the genetics

Post  gibbo156 on Sun 14 Apr 2013, 11:15

Here is where i demonstrate the difference between knowledge gained from reading about things and knowledge plus experience gained from actually doing it. I suspect that your knowledge plus experience is going to really test my limited knowledge.
At the risk of making a fool of myself,, here we go.
Firstly pictures one and two.
The blue striations in the dorsal fin are straight in fish one but more complex in fish two. I am not sure about this, i think it might be a sign of a zebra gene in fish two, but i might have missed the point and it is caused by a different gene entirely.
Fish two has a dark patch at the base of the caudal fin that isn't there in fish one. I think this means there is a marble gene.
The smokey patch is broken in fish two , but not so much in fish one. I think this is caused by a combination of zebra and smokey in fish two.
My vote is
Fish one: s/+, Sm/+, pb/pb
Fish two: M/+, s/z, Sm/+, pb/pb
I think the combination of z (zebra) and Sm (Smokey) is called Leopard, but i stay away from the names because they seem to mean different things to different people. The break up of the smokey patch caused by the leopard combination might mean that there isn't a stripeless gene in fish two, in which case it will be M/+, z/+, Sm/+, pb/pb
Assuming that i haven't failed entirely so far i will carry on with the next four, fishes 3, 4, 5 and 6.
They all look to be pb/pb so i won't bother mentioning that again.
Fish 6: The smokey patch is mostly unbroken and covers most of the body. There is also minor marbling and no stripes. Straight striations in the dorsal fin.
So fish 6: M/+, s/+, Sm/Sm, pb/pb ( Marbled chocolate blue ghost ? ? ?)

Fish 5 is similar. The smokey patch is not so prominent as it is in fish 6. so Sm/+.
The marbling is more prominent so maybe M/M
Fish 5: M/M, s/+, Sm/+, pb/pb ( marbled smokey blue ghost ? ? ? )

Fishe 4 might be a leopard ( smokey and zebra ) but the dark markings go all the way on to the face so i think there is marbling as well.
Fish 3 - i don't see smokey here, so marbled zebra ? ?

With the suspicion that i might have just scored 0 / 10 i am going to press the send key.

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Re: You need to look at the babies to tell the genetics

Post  Pterophyllum on Sun 14 Apr 2013, 13:31

OK....

Firstly pictures one and two.
The blue striations in the dorsal fin are straight in fish one but more complex in fish two. I am not sure about this, i think it might be a sign of a zebra gene in fish two,
Spot on. Count the number of striations in fish 1 you should be able to spot 7 or 8 with a possible 9th towards the tip, as you rightly point out, the pattern is much more chaotic in the second fish, but there are also more, slightly thinner & much closer together. Now do the same on your fish in the other thread...
It's not quite as obvious, but I'm pretty confident that both have a zebra gene.

with the next four, fishes 3, 4, 5 and 6.
They all look to be pb/pb so i won't bother mentioning that again.
Correct

Fish 6: The smokey patch is mostly unbroken and covers most of the body. There is also minor marbling and no stripes. Straight striations in the dorsal fin.
So fish 6: M/+, s/+, Sm/Sm, pb/pb ( Marbled chocolate blue ghost ? ? ?)

Pretty close, It's almost certainly :- Gm/+ - S/+ - Sm/Sm - pb/pb, I can't be absolutely sure about the stripeless and being a chocolate as I haven't bred from it, what I am confident of is the Gm.

Now fish 3 is M/+ - S/+ - Sm/+ - pb/pb admittedly the smokey is far from obvious in the photo, but it is often apparent on the fish, no zebra, look at the striations.

Fish 4 is the same as 3

Fish 5 is a sibling of 4 and to be honest I'm not 100% sure on this one myself.
I know the mother was M/+ - +/+ - +/+ - +/+ - +/pb
and that the father was Gm/+ - S/+ - Sm/Sm - p/p - +/pb

So it could be Gm/+ or M/+, my guess is that it's M/+ - S/+ - Sm/+ - +/p - pb/pb as it appears to have too much in the way of black markings to be Gm/+, but on the other hand the black markings are sparser than I'd expect to see in a typical marble; which is why I suspect that the marbling on your male comes from a Gm rather than a marble gene.
I'm not saying categorically that they do, but I'm fairly confident that they do.
Looking at the photos, some of the youngsters look to be much lighter in colour, which, if I'm right, will develop to be platinum marbles.

The complication with this is that I have fish from the above pairing which are M/Mg - Sm/+ - pb/pb and they are very similar in appearance to Gm/Gm - pb/pb fish, this one for example....


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Re: You need to look at the babies to tell the genetics

Post  gibbo156 on Sun 14 Apr 2013, 19:11

I nearly got it then.
Thanks for that Bob.
In the meantime
Pterophyllum wrote: ....

Now do the same on your fish in the other thread...
It's not quite as obvious, but I'm pretty confident that both have a zebra gene.

Which i think means that they are both s/z and the youngsters will therefore be ss , s/z or zz and i won't get any s/+

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Re: You need to look at the babies to tell the genetics

Post  Pterophyllum on Sun 14 Apr 2013, 22:14

Which i think means that they are both s/z and the youngsters will therefore be ss , s/z or zz and i won't get any s/+
You've got it.


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Re: You need to look at the babies to tell the genetics

Post  uk bulldog on Mon 15 Apr 2013, 07:01

Gibbo my hat goes off to you sir as i got a couple wrong amongest them,& this has turned out to be yet another learning curve for me so thanks again Rob.
I will have to get the hang of posting pics on here as i would love for you to have a look at some of my young Rob aswell as you Gibbo as no doubt i have got a couple of them wrong but at only 6 weeks i think i will leave it for another couple yet before commiting myself. Very Happy
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Re: You need to look at the babies to tell the genetics

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